Hi, I'm Virginia Graham, author of Floating with Finance and host of the Property and Mortgage Insights podcast. Each episode I sit down with the experts behind smart property decisions, from buyers, agents and legal professionals to finance specialists to explore the smart ways to buy, finance and manage property. Today's episode is something a little different. I'm dialling in remotely via Riverside, while two very special guests will join us live in the studio. First we have Phil Riches, a senior mortgage consultant from Finance on the coast and my business partner.

Many of you know Phil from past episodes and client stories. But today the spotlight is on someone else. A true professional, a long term client and someone with decades of experience in global financial services. Steve Hare. Steve started his career in the Sydney Futures exchange at just 17 years old.

And his work has been taken has taken him from Sydney to London to Singapore and back again. He's navigated everything from the GFC and Brexit to Covid and bringing depth and clarity to the financial decisions so many professionals face. But this isn't just a story about Steve's career. It's also about the shift from going it alone to embracing expert advice and how that led to some of the most important property and finance decisions in his life. Steve, Phil, so great to have you both in the studio.

Let's dive in. Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay, so Steve, can you tell us a little bit about your background, your career in finance and that kind of work that you've been involved in over the years? Yeah, sure, I guess, yeah.

Futures is where it started. What are futures? I had no idea right as a 17 year old probably go back a few years before that. I think I was always going to be in banking as a 1011 year old or was e theyither going to captain Australian cricket team or being banking that was to be one of the two piles and that quickly as the is where ondd went to banking had not cricket but yeah look probably have my mum and dad to blame one of six kids and the deal was once you finished school you paid your own way so I needed to get a job. The one of my most recent bosses favourite saying is better to be lucky than than good.

That's happened to me a number of times through my career and it just happened. One of my elder sisters I had a friend at an investment bank called Traders who were looking for uni students to work in futures and I had no idea what futures is but or was probably still don't even after nearly 30 years but I was given a number to call the Head of futures and reluctantly did but found myself with doing maths and finance at uni and doing 10 years on, 10 years, 10 hours on the side at a futures broker which was qu. Quite an interesting introduction into financial markets. I knew what banking was, I didn't know what financial markets were really. That changed very quickly.

The futures exchange without going into, into major detail, it's all electronic now but back then that was what was called open outcry which is all the viewers and listeners. You look back through the old movies, that's where you've got a bunch of people just yelling at each other. It's mayhem but it was a lot of fun. My job was at the beginning was to go down at the end of the day and pick up the tickets and, and process them. HR these days would have a field day I think with how I was back then but it was a lot of fun.

I'd played a lot of cricket with older guys so it wasn't new to me but some of the stuff that happened on the floor and some of the names was called and the banter, I think you'll call it banter that happened, yeah I have to say was awesome. Probably my mum and dad if they're listening to it probably think geez that, that, that happened to my son. But no, it was, it was a lot of fun and very quickly I realized that's where I wanted to more time. Yeah in the office and on the floor and then you know, come 2001 or so I was in basically a full time job already. So I maintained that and I guess the, the thing that surprised me, I didn't really map out the whole career but I did think I'd be some sort of trader.

I thought I'd be a risk taker or trader. It just happened that I kind of have gone from, from role to role that has evolved in a non trading way. So my, my career has really been in relationship management and giving access and service to. I used to be in, in the Anz bank as an interest rate dealer and then I worked in Solomon Smith Barney in private client advising and so we had a lot to do with the same thing. It was the bank in those days, none of it was, it wasn't all electronic just like the Futures Exchange, the Sydney.

Are you talking about the Sydney Futures Exchange? Is that where you were? Yeah, yeah. All of the banks and the futures exchange, all of the exchanges, the stock exchange, everything, none of it was, was as automated as people thought. Yeah, that's right.

It was literally at the end of the day with a stop working as well. You would get tickets there too. And do know. Do you remember what year it actually did change from the Futures Exchange from to when it went electronic?

Yeah, it sort of. It progressed from like 99 into the year 2000. There was a night session that went first which is called psyom and they did that first just as a bit of a te and that work. So a lot of the PSM guys who got a bit of a head start because they went from the floor and doing all the voice and manual kind of work to electronic before the. Before the rest of the market did.

So they had a bit of a. Of a jump but that was yet 992000 there probably a few people call in and say you got that slightly wrong but no, I'm pretty sure about 99 was when it went electronic and that was one of the first exchanges around. You could change the way that trading was done as well. Like they used to have the S sport boxes and you could feel the market of what was happening and now when it's all electroityic you can't. It's incredible.

I mean we could do a whole podcast on the futures market. But the trading floor these days is very quiet. Sport boxes exist but only the old dealers on the other end of the line kind to use them these days. Ye. If there's nothing happening in the market it'it can be quite a boring place or at least a quiet place these days.

But you still get the significant events when they come, when they're unexpected, a hive of activity. But yes, very, very different from 25 years ago. So before you met Phil, what were you aiming at for financially? Was it with property investing or structuring things differently? Like what were you aiming at at that point?

Yeah, so pretty not unique at all. I guess it always looked at ye owning a family home here in Australia that was kind of number one that evolved and I'll stop using that word but I guess that's the right one in terms of investment property and to answer your question, it's always the investment has always really been about property for me. Yeah Working in a bank there's always been restrictions on trading, whether it's been for personal, whether it's you can do it but you for shares, your futures, like anything, it's always been quite hard and I've always just kept outside of that and kept sort of clean there and then sort of looked at property as my investment opportunity I guess. You know the family home has always been the number one. So very normal, I guess, or very regular story there.

And then I'dabbled in and out of investing in property. Yeah. Over the years at various, various levels. But yeah, meeting Phil was really around knowah organizing predominantly the financing on our family home. Sure.

I think when we first were introduced one of the things that struck me was that professionals residing overseas and it was kind of coincidence that I realised not too long before we met, probably a year before we met, that in my industry of finance broken that it was probably a smart move to pick some niche areas to operate in, whether it be self managed super funds lending and things like that. But also I had experience for Australian expats residing overseas because the banks look at an Australian expat many different ways. Some banks won't lend at all and obviously the risk to the bank is around currency fluctuations. So some banks are really prudent in terms of what they'll allow from an offshore income perspective. And it really was, it was meant to be, I think that I'd then had a steady flow of Australian expats and we worked really closely together and it became apparent to me that the debt structuring piece was so important.

And when we first met we were looking at the family home and we were also looking at a potential investment property that would be forthcoming. And how do we go about setting all of that up for you in a way that understanding you would eventually return to Australia. And let's set it up correctly now so that when that happens, which of course has since happened, let's have everything in place so that it's set up in the right way for you. And that was something I just didn't appreciate that I needed to do. So I guess looking back, maybe 2005, made first purchase and kind of bought and sold on my own.

No advice, no financial advice, definitely no mortgage advice. And I think for me there's a few reasons for that. I'm not the most egotistical person but I was like, I'm in finance, I know this, I can do this. Ab I think there was an element of I think I'm going to save money doing it myself. Sure.

So let's, let's do that. Yeah, let's show my family I can provide. Not just in the job, like I can do this, I can run this. There was a bit of ego, a bit of arrogance as well. But again, going back to the lucky and good kind of thing, I think ye it's just up in Singapore and looking at investment property and being overseas, I had A well, I needed a property agent anyway but I'd contacted this property agent and just said I'LOOKING for some.

I don't know why I said this but I said looking for some advice I'm going to probably buy an investment property. And she he got me involved in a company called Good Deeds'm a buyer's agent to help me and they've also helped transform my investment decisions and they got me in touch with you because they asked me like, who's your mortgage broker? And I said, well, it's me. And they were like, what are you doing? Like in Singapore?

You're not across so many bits and pieces and I kind of thought I was and it was only then when I was introduced to you that my eyes were opened up as to what I was missing out on. So yeah, the investment decisions I'd made before meeting you feel were OK, but they were naive as well so they weren't disastrous. They were probably on the positive side but thinking about how to structure it, what life stage I was at, I hadn't thought any of any of these things Thinking about how banks look at expats banks goallop and down like what, one month it might be a particular make three or four months time it could be another and I guess that's where you won the trust to begin with because I did come into it thinking I'm not sure I need this ye but it was all the information that you're able to give me really opened my eyes up to get right I need to this is the path I need to go down on use experts in their expert field. I'm not an expert. I quickly realised that and very happy and lucky I guess that had happened at that point.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's funny you should say that because similarly, because we're in finance, I would never purport to have a full grasp on what you do for a living or even accounting or whatever the case may be. But we even find that when we visit our accountant that they Sometimes I get the impression that we know more even if it's around the dialogue that they're using and the terminology that we know more than we do. So we continually remind our accountant please talk to us in a way where we're not in finance and it's massively helped on our tax planning meetings and things like that. Absolutely.

Dealing with the subject matter expert is great. I'm thrilled to have been on the journey with you for almost 15 years and we've gone through so many different transitions with Various banks and also with various properties and even right up to the present time where you've got great additions to your family home occurring. It's been a great journey to be on with you and see the changes that have gone for you professionally and personally and very glad that the introduction was made and also that we've been able to work together so successfully for so long. Oh look, absolutely definite turning point came has. Oh look when first started working with Phil, you know it was a bit of a leap of faith.

I as I kind of said I thought I could do this myself. Right. So being told by people that I trusted that I needed a mortgage broker, needed to work with Phil, you know, it didn't take a huge leap of faith But Phil did need to win that trust and I guess the way Phil did that was very close to the ethos that I sort of maintained for my own clients which is youe access and service. And in a consistent basis in my own job, I'm not making trading decisions. I'm giving that access, I'm giving that, that, that service and I win that trust.

And very quickly I learned that that's what Phil you basically you worked by as well and what I mean by that. Yeah, the access Phil gave to me was with various different banks. Feel like I moved banks a number of times which I would never have probably done on my own. And that was the access part of it that the service was you know, every month or when then there was something meaningful come up, you know an email would pop up from Phil Riches and I quickly realised they weren'were not spam and they were very worthwhile reads. Whether it was around rates, whether it was around banks looking at more at discretionary spending, whether it was banks looking at more, you know, cross currencies when I was you know crossing Singapore very much and even giving rundowns on budgets or reg updates were really helpful.

So I feel very quickly kind of won my trust and ye we actually main only met each other face to face for the first time today but we've spoken to each other hundreds of times. So very quickly Phil'approach I could see was not a numbers game that he very much valued. If Phil mentioned the word niche before, he very much valued that, that customer base and yeah wasn't going to make money out of numbers. It was about having meaningful and long lasting relationships which is what really drew me or kept me with, with Phil. Yeah, I mean just leading in from what you mentioned before, the, the question, it just, it got me thinking to probably the Best investment that I made.

Well outside getting married I guess my wife will probably watch this at some point but no our family home at White Street. It's a bit of a story in itself and it comes back to. To the trust I had in Phil. It came about on a. It was Chinese New Year's I recall that's when you have a bit of time off.

In Singapore we were away and I was on a beach and it got me thinking that we. It's about time that yah. We had a couple of investment properties at the time but it was about time we look at a family home. So I think we got back on the Sunday on the Monday I just looked up online we kind of thought in the west maybe Balmain. I just had to look at the prices to get a feel for it and I. I came across one property and I wanted to kind of get a feel for how much that would go for.

So I contacted buyer's agent and had a quick chat and that was on the Monday. The property was for optuctioned on the Saturday I think on Tuesday morning I said to my wife that we're going to go to auction on Saturday for this property and she thought I was crazy but she kind of just said ye go for it, do whatever. Not expecting anything to come of it. But that's a bit blasey for me to say because she did trust me and I don't think she would have trusted me if I was doing it on my own. She trusted that we had.

I'll go back and give Good deeds another plug because they massively helped through that week. But we got finance orderrted by the Thursday with Phil I think I had options and we were ready to go. And if I was either doing that myself or looking at a mortgage broker for the first time I think it would have easily gone into the too hard basket especially doing it from Singapore. And yeah, Saturday 2:30 in the afternoon we got the phone call from buyer'agent and we. We were successful.

The auction it's crazy to think that that all happened in a week and I just happen to see that the property online but that's our family home now. We got the financing sorted that field had pre arranged. We're always going to do a bit of a renovation to it and that's what we're going through now. A fairly major innov but even the structure of how we've put that together that Phil has put together I should say not, not we but the structure we put together has given me the Confidence to go out to a number of builders even to get confidence or to give them confidence in the. That the major works they were going to do.

So it's just been. And I wouldn't say trickle a bit. It's just that flow on effect from the trust that I've had with Phil has got us to the point where we could. We'd love the renovation to be finished. That's about the ad gripe that we've got with the weather and the like.

But the finished product, when it comes through towards the end of this year, like we just couldn't be happier with then. I really don't think I could have done that if what it kept going on my own. I would have got somewhere for sure. But it was just through the nuances that Phil has given that were able to. Well, to be able to even bid on the property was a pretty amazing thing to turn around that in a week.

But since then just that the restructuring that we've gone through over the various phases because Covid came in and rates obviously changed there. So we've done a lot of things since. Because that was back in 2015 Phil that. That we bought White Street. So lots s happened since then and a lot of restructuring to the point that we're now at um.

We're now at the proper renovation stage. So if you. A lot of little things Phil has helped with. But by far and away the biggest goal that we had, as I said pretty much our whole lives was to get that family home. And we couldn't be happier with.

With the purchase that we've got and then how things are tracking with it. Great, great, Steve. And I think when you were remote at the time, that trust was really important to being able to have a confidence in going to the auction and bidding. And then of course probably three years ago now or two years ago, we looked at how we were going to set up the structuring for the renovations that you're doing. I can't wait to see the pictures of the end product, actually.

I bet you can'ot wait for it to be finished and moving. Absolutely. No, absolutely. That's. That's a 2025, hopefully not a 2026 thing.

But yeah, it is. It is what it is with the renovation. But you know, there's so many things that go into a renovation of that size. And one thing I didn't have to worry about was the financing side speaking to builders. I didn't have to worry about how they wanted to be paid.

Um, yeah, I'kind of got over and was able to get trust with the builders because I had the. Everything kind of sorted on on the finance side. So um. So yeah we'll u now that the weeks and months go get past and hopefully they're doing some work as we speak. But um.

But yeah that's, that's been the major thing that we. We've got whilst holding on to you know, investment property that we'still got. Yeah, that, that could have been tricky but um. But yeah we've been able to. To again structure it in a way that, that works for us at the moment.

Sure. Yeah. And. And my wife FA and I stop and think about it. It is pretty crazy that I, I even clicked on that particular page that had that particular property because I wasn't going in Virginia to, to buy any property.

I just wanted to get a feel for how what the market was. Yeah that. And that quickly changed to full steam ahead. I think Phil's name me quite long enough now to know that I am pretty cool, calm and collected generally. But every now and again there is a bit of some sort of switch that goes on and there's.

There's a quick how do we do this? Feel like it feels like o hold on. I't didn't know that was coming. But yeah, I can be kind of impulsive there. But impulsive is probably the wrong word because it was quite considered in the experts that I was using and that's I guess the message that yeah when I speak to my wife, if I speak to anyone it's let experts be the experts.

Don't do it yourself. And that was a mistake I had made earlier. But yeah, the impulse to look at this property, that seemingly innocuous kind of decision was just backed by that trust and confidence that I had in, in the people around me and the experts around me. So yeah, that's the big lesson that I kind of learnt from that and I try and pass on to others. No, I mean I think it's been a really good long term partnership really hasn't it?

And you've really touched on the point around that. It's such a big life changing property. This is such a big life changing investment, whether it's your home or an investment property that to leave things to chance in that environment which many people do or like you say feel that they've got the knowledge and experience to do that by themselves and navigate that pathway by themselves.

It's interesting that that happens with such your. The biggest investment in your life. I think really you know the way I like to work is obviously building the trust with the clients. But also it's really important to me to understand because it's so wide reaching in terms of how each bank looks, has their credit policy set up for property finance and, and the discrepancies between what each bank will do at any given point in time because these credit policies are ever changing dynamics. Each bank's got say a 2, 300 page document on how they look at the type of property, the location of the property.

Every postcode in Australia is categorised by banks according to its location, the value of the property, the size of the property and all those sorts of things all sitting there in their credit policy as well as how they'look at what you do for a living, whether you're on shore in Australia or offshore, whether you get a portion of your income as a bonus or you get a portion of your income eartaxed. It's different with every bank. So we've got 50 banks on our panel and every single credit policy is different. And the way I like to work, I think that price is obviously a very important thing, particularly when we've talked about how big an investment a property is. But price for me comes important into the equation.

But understanding the credit policy and then making sure that you're with a bank that you can move to do these changes with, whether it's an investment property, whether it's constructing and making renovations to your home, it's making sure that I understood what you want to do now and when you're in Singapore as well. Also understanding whether you had a plan to return to Australia and understanding what you saw at medium and long term goals were really. And setting up with a bank that was most suited to your needs now whilst understanding that that might change over time. And of course it did. And so we moved with the right bank at the right point in time and it was really good to see that happen that the actual matching you to a lender that suited your situation and circumstances came to fruition to give you what you needed.

Yeah, and I guess examples, like real examples of what that looked like for me over the years a couple of times I might have been slightly too big for my boots and said come and feel I think we can get a better rate somewhere. And you're like you're on the, if you do you're going to come out with the worst rate typ thing. You're already kind of in a good place there. But probably more to the point you, the knowledge that you've got with all those credit policies, but also the connections that you've got. More than once you've said to me things like this particular bank has got discretion for the month, for the first five days and that might.

It dried up. So don't even think about looking at a rate negotiation in the back half of the month that that's all gone. Look at a particular point of the month. Like how anyone that's not in the industry and an expert could know that. Like you're missing out on that, that type of thing.

Yeah. When we were looking at the renovation and obviously, you know, looking at, at a higher level of funding, I think to your point around looking for the best rate, that I probably would have gone for myself if I was doing it on my own, you kind of gave me the advice that you got to be in the top 1 or 2% of the book here and that's okay, but it's probably not a long term great place to be. And so we ended up not going for that, which I probably would have jumped in at if it was, if it was myself. So just having you as the expert across the industry, give me those little bits of information has really guided my decision. So that's what I kind of talk about.

The connectivity and the access that you've given. It's helped just tweak, if that's the right word, the decisions that we've ended up making. So yeah, that access and service part that you give, that, that's the type of real life example that you've been able to give. That's great. That's really, really rewarding to hear.

Thanks, Dave.